http://www.silverstripe.org/home/ http://www.silverstripe.org/in-defense-of-frameworks/#PageComment_9399 Consider this as a different scale frameworks and you get a perfect picture of a PHP roadmap from its birth. Once upon a time there were no frameworks, and, just imagine, people mixed PHP and HTML (although some still do now) - childhood. Then there was a perturbation period, a number of different approaches, template languages over PHP, ugly formed CMSs (some are still alive), and mother nature for developer sake selected a few to survive. Now, what some may call a maturity is still that period and it will last forever, and many species will be abandoned to live in remote forests, some dominate. However, each survived has its own niche, and what's more important, dominating species will die as soon their feeding chain will be cut.

My point is it might be useless to compare frameworks of a different scale, moreover inappropriate at all. Or, better, imagine PHP developer who started with some MVC framework on his first days (let's say Z), and was there for years mastering all the whistles and bells, achieving the top in that, and one day he faced something that is beyond that, where database connection (bad example) has to be coded himself!

After this, is one can be called a PHP developer or Z-framework developer? I'm pointing is out by comparing available docs for PHP with that imaginary Z-framework, where the latter has an overwhelming amounts of "handy", "useful" etc libraries, models and it makes one to learn some other language than PHP. This is my argument to the article, although does not reflect my position. Thu, 23 Feb 2012 22:08:08 +1300 Alexey http://www.silverstripe.org/in-defense-of-frameworks/#PageComment_9399 http://www.silverstripe.org/in-defense-of-frameworks/#PageComment_9387 @schellmax; I checked to see if we had any documentation on the Framework as a standalone. The answer, unfortunately, is No. The release of the Framework is part of SS 3.0 and therefor we do have the feature in place but no documentation yet. We have that on our to do list, since we know how important documentation is, but it is not a trivial piece of work and therefor we have decided to get the feature in first and the documentation will follow. Tue, 21 Feb 2012 16:28:38 +1300 Kerstin http://www.silverstripe.org/in-defense-of-frameworks/#PageComment_9387 http://www.silverstripe.org/in-defense-of-frameworks/#PageComment_9381 Russ I completely agree except I think they people "THINK" they are bloody good coders. :) Sat, 18 Feb 2012 02:53:13 +1300 Josette Rigsby http://www.silverstripe.org/in-defense-of-frameworks/#PageComment_9381 http://www.silverstripe.org/in-defense-of-frameworks/#PageComment_9375 I fail to understand how anyone having used a framework in any language, would not be swayed by the advantages they hold.

This leads me to believe that those folks who _are_ dissuaded by them have not tried any or are just bloody good coders, able to knock-up architecturally sound apps in as much time. I would argue however that the latter are few and far between, even more so in the PHP world, having long-ago switched to other languages with more rules and arguably better OO implementations. Fri, 17 Feb 2012 07:59:04 +1300 Russ http://www.silverstripe.org/in-defense-of-frameworks/#PageComment_9375 http://www.silverstripe.org/in-defense-of-frameworks/#PageComment_9372 are there any hints/tutorials how to get started using sapphire as a standalone framework without the cms module? Thu, 16 Feb 2012 22:44:57 +1300 schellmax http://www.silverstripe.org/in-defense-of-frameworks/#PageComment_9372